FatEck.co.uk

News and comment on Rangers FC.

1. 2blue 03.16.06 / 9pm

   Eck you make this statement.

   “And I�m claiming Rangers for the Protestants”

   Please explain this, where in the founding of Rangers football club is there any mention of us being Protestant or coming from or created for Protestants, and I’m dead serious about this mate, if you have anything concrete please inform me.
2. u2 03.16.06 / 10pm

   Aye, fatboy. Answer 2blue.

   While yer at it, ye keep claiming a hate of religion, a love of the Gers, and now declare Rangers for Protestants. Eh?

   Aye. Mair mixed up, contradictory, hypocrytical, scyzophrenic nonsense.

   And I’m still pissed off that Add N to X “seriously insulted” you and I never.
3. Fat Eck 03.16.06 / 11pm

   U2 - From “I don’t read you’re site as much as I used to” to two posts every minute! If my rantings are getting too complex for you then ye really do need a rest. And if they’re as bad as you’re making out - fair comment - why would you keep embarrassing yourself by publicly admitting you’re reading them all??!! Don’t go all “Timahoy” on me. I only mention this because, having called myself “Fat Eck” for the past five years you’ve suddenly decided to call me “Fat Boy” and that having said in the above rant ” I hate ALL religion but here I am wanting to claim Rangers for The protestants because that’s where we’re from and that’ll do for me! It’s just a wee bitty mixed up, is it not?” you again “come back” at me with a point I’ve actually given you. What next? “Hey, Eck - you support Rangers - they’re noh gonnae win the league this year.”? Devestating.

   Gie yerself a slap - pick up the pace, U2, for fucks sake.

   2 Blue - feel free to be as dead serious as you like but you might have come to the wrong place: There is absolutely NOTHING “in the founding” of Rangers which says we’re a Protestant club - just as there’s nothing which says that we’re bigots or that we’re up to our knees in fenian blood or that we should win our league more times than anyone else in the world. In fact I think you’ll find Moses Mac and the boys wore tashes - but then facial hair was banned at Ibrox for years - and then John Greig wore a wee goatee in the run up to the 72 Cup Winners Cup triumph. You’ll also find there was nothing in our founding which said we’d play in blue or play at Ibrox stadium. It’s almost as if things change and there comes different points in time which decide your “latest” identity.

   If you read back your own little quote of me, you’ll notice the use of the first person. It’s only ME whose claiming us for the protestants - that’s how I see it and it’s really only in the context of the assumption by critics that we’re bigots BECAUSE we’re mostly protestants at Ibrox. Everyone else can do what they like. See it how they like. Honestly. No-one has to worry.

   By the way, neither do I say that all protestants must support Rangers - just in case anyone else is about to write in. Please feel free to support whoever you want, no matter your religion: I’m not the messiah - just a very fat man.

   I’m definitely losing the touch I never had - is no-one else getting me here? Do I have to SPELL IT OUT??!! It IS indeed “mixed up, contradictory, hypocrytical, scyzophrenic nonsense”. Am I suddenly the only person in the world who can hold two contradictory viewpoints in his head at the same time? The fact that U2 views that very suspension of one’s disbelief which allows football fandom to happen in the first place as Schizophrenia is starting to seriously worry me (AND me!). In fact, self-reflexively (ooooh-er!), U2 has actually hit upon a far better headline for the whole rant - for the whole “I know how to support Rangers better than you” debate. In his honour, I’ll retitle it as such. Think it’s the best compliment I can pay to my current number one fan.

   Oh and I hope “Add A to B” is reading this thread - if a Celtic fan is telling me I’m full of shit then surely I must be doing something right!
4. 2blue 03.17.06 / 12am

   Eck you’re starting to worry even me, you say you hate all religions and yet your claiming Rangers for the protestants, do you hate protestants less than you hate other religions or do you hate them all equally and your just trying to wind up the ones you hate more, which by itself is a contradiction, I’m all messed up here, please help.
   I just got a wee sneaky thought, do you secretely hate Rangers and so you wish upon them the protestant religion fan so as to punish them.. am I all feked up
5. Fat Eck 03.17.06 / 12am

   2Blue - ye want the truth? You can’t HAAAAAANdle the truth!
   :-)

   Och, see me - I don’t actually “hate” any ONE - I just hate certain IDEAS. Anyone who is too certain about their politics or their religion just worries me.

   You’ve got me bang to rights,tho: I hate Rangers - There’s no denying that. Some of the shit they’ve put me through …
6. whydoyouneedtoknow? 03.17.06 / 9am

   Use your sepl chekers
7. Add N to X 03.17.06 / 10am

   Nice to see you just shrug off the criticism….

   Ok, ok - you’ve written a fairly lengthy riposte, so in the interests of fairness, here you go;

   I don’t want to hear about the pontiff at Ibrox. I don’t want to hear about paramilitary groups at ANY football match. And I’m quite prepared to accept that in a group of 50,000 people - many drawn from working-class areas - that those badly served by the failing Education system of the last 20 years (both ruling parties) who don’t have the intelligence required to see the bigger picture may ‘let the side down’.

   What I don’t accept is your way of dealing with it.

   The WSC thing re-inforced a prejudice spun by clever media outlets of the last few years that Rangers = Bigot. To the casual audience - and WSC is certainly that when it comes to Scottish Football - seeing the word ‘bigot’ in a piece on Rangers just casually re-inforced it. It was a crass remark and an almost unbelievable own goal.

   As for context - I know the context of the ‘So Huns In Europe’ story. Doesn’t make it any less silly. Many Rangers fans are offended by the word. A Rangers fan using it to describe our OWN support - no matter how ironically - could be seen to legitimise its use by others. Have a look at the Scottish Fitba’ board, its the descriptive term of choice.

   As for self-hater? All right, maybe a bit too strong (then again, I hadn’t realised you were so sensitive.)

   But I firmly believe that if we keep running, they’ll keep chasing. And, rightly or wrongly, I think you’d keep running way past a point I’m comfrtable with.

   I’ve kept this as ‘on-topic’ as possible and avoided any personal insults. If you want a sensible debate, let’s do it!
8. calvinist 03.17.06 / 12pm

   Eck, re the quote:

   “You�ve totally ignored one half of my statement: �I�d publicly acknowledge our support is full of Protestants and bigots.� Full of Protestants, mate. Protestants AND bigots. I�m making a distinction. And I�m claiming Rangers for the Protestants - everyone else is welcome at Ibrox but this is where we come from.”

   That excuse doesn’t wash I’m afraid.
   The only distinction anyone else will make is the useage of the word “full”.
   Now I aknowledge that we have an element we’d rather be rid of, and a condemn FTP as a statement, but you DID feed our enemies with the kind of propaganda they love.

   Au Revoir.
9. east belfast ger 03.17.06 / 4pm

   Whats the fuss all about? Fat eck stated that the rangers support is full of protestants and bigots. Not protestant bigots, he clearly distinguished between them. Now a quick question for everyone. Being from east belfast I could be described as a “loyal ulsterman” - allegiance to queen and country, helping out in interface areas after unprovoked attacks etc - so does my singing of build my gallows make me a bigot? Or just someone extremely proud of my province, which like it or nor has a unbreakable link to Rangers seeing as Moses McNeills mother was from Northern Ireland and has carried on through the years through supporters and players such as Billy Simpson.

   There is no doubt about it we have bigots amongst our support, as does nearly every team in scotland. But by singing the same songs as them it does not necessarily make us one as well. I’d challenge anyone to prove this bigot tag that they like to apply to rangers fans. This assumption is based on the lyrics of songs for goodness sake, does the singing of the blue sea of Ibrox make us all expert sailors? Lets drop the FTP and see what they can throw at us then i say. Let them keep chasing.
10. u2 03.17.06 / 5pm

    Fatboy, have you really renamed this article based on my post? Fannnx. So honoured, I could greet. My words coming up on News Now! Wow. First timer. Shucks.

    Ye really should’ve renamed all your recent articles with the same title, though. Cos that’s what’s shining through in them. I’ve been away from the site for a while, as I said, and returning last week for a wee bit of participation - that’s what struck me. You realy don’t seem to have clarity of thought these days. Very confused articles. Not just this one.

    East Belfast Ger, are you for real? “Don’t judge me on the lyrics of a song I sing”? Is that the same as “don’t judge me on what I say”? Using your wee analogy, the Blue Sea of Ibrox is a wonderful song with imagery - full of the good things about Ranges and their decent fans. Not about sailors or the sea per say. I don’t know the lyrics to build my gallows or what it’s about, so I’m not offended by it. But I do know the words to “No Pope of Rome” and the Billy Boys. I do know the words to those if you think they are perfectly acceptable then you are part of teh problem whetehr you realise it or not.

    Also, you quote fat Eck about some invisible distinction between protestant bigots and protestants and bigots. Be aware that the fatboy doesn’t know what he’s talking aboot these days and cannae maintain continuity between one sentence and the next never mind one article and the next. If you are interpreting (and by extension agreeing) Eck’s distinction that there are protestants and bigots at Ibrox but not protestant bigots, what exactly are the bigots if not protestants???

    See - telt ye. Agreeing with the mixed up, contradictory, hypocritical, schizophrenic fatboy could leave you little confused east belfast ger. Let them keep chasing right enough - Hibs and Kilmarnock that is, cos it ain’t anybody else:)

    C’mon the Hearts.
11. u2 03.17.06 / 5pm

    per se. per se. one hundred times, per se.

    Banter and gentle hostilities to one side for wee mo, it was fabulous to see so many Rangers strips, scarves and hats today on the route between Uddingston and Parkhead and all around the Celtic Park area. I remember an “RIP Slim Jim” banner in the Celtic End at Hampden in the wake of Jim Baxter’s passing and the minute’s silence impeccably observed. I was proud that day.

    I hope Hearts allow a minutes applause at Tynecastle on Sunday as I’m sure it’ll be wholeheartedly supported by both sides there. He was truly a unique wee character and there are lots of Gers fans I know would welcome it and would feel a similar sense of pride having participated.
12. Robert Fae Carfin 03.17.06 / 5pm

    Hi Eck,

    Good to see that you are brave enough to put your ahead above the parpits, and frankly whether we like it or not, we do have bigots in our midst. We all have them at work, we pass them in the street, we are governed by them, we are policed by them, we watch them in the news in every country in the world and in every walk of life. Its a human disease and is the basis for how most churches, political parties and countries were formed on! Its not a Rangers problem and its not a football problem, but unfortunately it manifests itself in a small percentage of our support (and others too, but that’s for them to fix themselves!)

    Fat Eck, you made the mistake (?) of being honest, while everyone else wants to spin, spin, spin! I prefer your honesty, then at least we have a chance to addressing the problem and making it a more conducive environment to watch football in. The tims and the press will have a field day with your statement, but at least it challenges the status quo. Those cheeky chaps from the east end with their terrorist/freedom figher(*delete as applicable) songs can pretend there are all saints, but in their hearts they know too!

    I’m still to be convinced about the RST and the value they add, but this is the PERFECT issue for them to address!! If they really want a voice on the Rangers Board (and the power and prestige that goes with it), then Murray should mandate them to clean up our supporters act! Put specific objectives in place and measure them. This has got to be better than sending out endless press releases on mcnee, spiers, uefa, murray, etc, etc!!! on how they don’t like us! Fu�& them! they’ll do their worst anyway, but probably get a bigger kick getting the attention! Grow and lets tackle this issue together!

    We shouldn’t call each other Huns? C’MON!!!! I don’t like it, but its better than being called an orange b@st@rd or worse! We should embrace the things that our rivals and the press throw in our face. We should see more saltires at the match and be proud of it, we should sing songs about huns and laugh and joke at our own expense, but we MUST tackle the last obstacle to us being a very greatest club in every sense!

    Anyway, good luck to us all for the game on Sunday and hopefully we can get behind our multi-cultural, multi-faith players and roar them onto victory.

    Let’s give wee Jinky Johnstone the honour he deserves and remember him for the special talent and character that he was!

    C’mon the Gers!
13. Me2 03.17.06 / 5pm

    FAo U2,

    “what exactly are the bigots if not protestants???”

    I know you don’t come across that bright - but if you had read the article properly you would see that you have confirmed his point. There are Protestants at Ibrox, and there are some bigots, but unlike what you say - they are not the same. Even though there are Protestant bigots, being a Protestant does not mean you are a bigot.

    Just like Celtic are an Irish Catholic club who have thousands of supporters who glorify terrorists and murderers, and sing “F*** Davie Cooper”. These are Catholic bigots but it doesn’t mean Catholics are bigots per se. Geddit?
14. u2 03.17.06 / 6pm

    Me2,

    I gottit. First time. Read again - I was asking east belfast ger if he gottit. Read his post and you’ll see. He was making a misleading distinction. Gettit?

    Where have I EVER suggested Protestants and bigots are the same thing???? Never ever, that’s when.

    See Eck - yer confusing your bretheren. That’s what happens when your message is contradictory and mixed up.

    Me2 - as for your point on Celtic’s Catholic bigots, why I think we are in agreement on that one sir. Anything that stains the name of my beloved club I am against. I’ve argued the case on Celtic websites - our away repertiore remains unacceptable in many ways. The Davie Cooper song was appauling and the IRA stuff has nothing to do with Celtic.

    That’s easy stuff your throwing around at me. Try getting the RST to give such a clear answer to recipricated questions and you’ll struggle work out their answer - if you haven’t dosed off before the end.
15. Harry 03.17.06 / 6pm

    So can anyone explain 2blue’s queery ie. “why are Rangers a protestant club”
    What in their history shows that to be so?
16. Me2 03.17.06 / 7pm

    U2

    The RST have came out against all Racism and Bigotry, while on public radio the leader of the Celtic Supporters Trust defended the IRA by saying they “are a political organisation”!!!

    Harry

    I see you are waiting to be morally outraged here. Rangers have many Catholic players (new manager) and according to that bastion of Protestantism - Glasgow City Council - and their report into sectarianism, there are more Catholic Rangers fans that Protestant Celtic fans.

    However, most fans are Protestant and Rangers have traditionally been a Protestant orientated club. And before you explode with moral outrage, I will happily do away with the term if Celtic fans will give up their Irish Catholic traditions.
17. sigmund 03.17.06 / 7pm

    for U2

    what weight would you put on the actions of a teams fans, compared to, lets say, it’s players and officials ?
18. u2 03.17.06 / 9pm

    Sigmund,

    I suspect you have a ready made response awaiting my answer, but let me play alongawhileanyway. It is a very broad question you pose, one which a short answer would not do justice. However, let me try.

    Paradoxically, I’d say the players and officials carry a slightly higher burden of responsibility despite the fans being the most important part of the club.

    Whatdaeyesaytaethatthen?
19. u2 03.17.06 / 10pm

    Me2,

    I never spotted yer wee RST comment. I guess you agree with them in their refusal to condemn “durty fenian b*******” as an unacceptable phrase for use at Ibrox. That doesn’t sound like condemning all bigotry to me matey. The spokesperson defended it by quoting the Oxford English as defining fenian as an Irish brotherhood from last century??? He conveniently truncated that Oxford English quote immediately before the - and shall I quote for correctness? I think I shall - “offensive Protestant name for a Catholic”.

    Do you condemn it, Me2? Do you?

    I suspect you don’t really want a deep philisophical debate on the IRA, UVF, UDA and other such organisations. I have clear views on them all. I’ve condemned IRA songs at Celtic matches.

    Do you condemn UVF and UDA songs at Rangers matches?
20. u2 03.17.06 / 10pm

    Eck, am I fast becoming your most frequent poster this week having been away for so long?? I do hope so. I enjoy the confusion you bring to your fellow bears sometimes. I really do.

    I’ve had a post renamed.
    I’ve had someone create a pseudonym very similar, but also very opposite, to mine. Very clever.
    I’ve had a dialogue with someone called sigmund.
    And I might be - just might be - on the verge of having someone condemn “dfb” as an unacceptable phrase for use at Ibrox.

    All in the one week. I really should come over here more often.
21. Harry 03.18.06 / 2am

    Me2
    I wont go into the origins of The Celtic Football club, suffice it to say that it was started by a Catholic priest to benifit Irish immigrants, hence the two connections, now could you do likewise with Rangers, a simple request, just to show where the protestant link came from.
22. Me2 03.18.06 / 8am

    Harry,

    “If you know your history” and read books such as “Old Firm” and “Bhoys, Bears and Bigotry” by Bill Murray (Who is no friend of Rangers and slaughters them also) you will find out that Celtic were formed not to feed poor Catholics, but to keep them away from Protestants. Do a bit of research and open your eyes.

    Celtic are FROM Irish Catholics in the past.

    Rangers ARE British and Protestant.

    Your comment is as silly as going to a team like Beitar Jerusalem and saying why are you an Israeli Jewish team, where are your links? Or saying to Legia Warsaw, why are you a Polish Catholic team? Duh!
23. Me2 03.18.06 / 8am

    U2

    I condemn all sectarian chants, but I think you will find lots of Protestant Fenians like Wolfe Tone. I happen to be one of those actively campaigning to stop the usage of these terms, but as someone from a mixed heritage (both Catholic and Protestant) I have only ever experienced sectarianism from my own family and friends, so brainwashed that they are they think calling Rangers “Scum”, “huns” and Orange bastards” that when you challenge them they are bemused that they are saying anything wrong.

    A good example is being at the recent U2 concert when my cousin pointed out a man with a red, white and blue hat (I was wearing a big green shamrock hat - I was pi**ed) and said “there is no need for that, he is a bigot.” The guy was from America.

    I have never called anyone a “fenian b*stard” but then as a non-Celtic fan I cannot be a victim of sectarianism or moral outrage can I?
24. u2 03.18.06 / 9am

    Me2,

    Was that a “yes” to both questions or was it procrastination?

    One word answer will suffice.
25. Me2 03.18.06 / 9am

    U2

    I think saying, “I condemn all sectarian chants” covers that.

    Do you condemn Celtic fans singing about the IRA, Huns and DOB’s?
26. u2 03.18.06 / 10am

    Me2,

    I don’t think it does. The RST say that, but refuse to condemn DFB as an unacceptable term to use at Ibrox.

    So, one more time, yes or no to both questions?

    Yes I do. And frequently on other sites.
27. Derek 03.18.06 / 10am

    So is it bigoted to call John Hartson a fenian bastard?

    And why are celtic fans so upset at a word when then they use it themselves to abuse an opposition player?
28. Me2 03.18.06 / 10am

    U2

    I think you are not really that dumb are you? Are you taking the Piss?

    YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!

    So we both agree that non-football, political/religious terms are wrong.

    Let us all live now in peace and harmony.
29. u2 03.18.06 / 10am

    Me2,

    The RST appear to be that DUMB!!!! They can’t use the word “yes” in that context at all. Maybe you could have a word.

    Derek,

    Welcome - I thought Me2 and U2 were alone in this dark arena. I wonder where Eck has gone. I hope I get a few bob for keeping his site ticking over in his absence.

    I’ve never heard such a chant by Celtic fans, about John Hartson or anyone else. I think we should clarify a few things before Mrs U2 finds out I’ve got internety dialogue going on with strangers.

    The ocean can’t be boiled at once. Trying to stop sectarian chants such as FTP, DOB, DFB is do-able, with focus, clarity and leadership from the right people. The RTS have a role to play. Trying to do that while also trying to simultaneously address IRA, UVF, UDA and other assorted songs of that ilk would be like trying to boil that ocean. One step at a time and we’ll get there.

    You will note that I have never once condemned the “Loyalist” type songs at Ibrox - UDA, UVF, the Sash and others - not because I’m not against them - but because they are in a more complex category and to address on a mere football site such as this would muddy the waters.

    Eck,

    I must head off to play my first golf tie of the new season now. Then I’ve got a cup final to go to. Then I’m off on a wee business trip. Then I’m off on a wee holiday. I’ve enjoyed my short return visit to your mixed up, contradictory, hypocritical, schizophrenic - and confused - site.

    No charge for looking after it in your absence.

    I’ll pop in again sometime soon.

    C’mon the Hearts. C’mon the Hibs. Gretna for Europe.
30. Me2 03.18.06 / 11am

    U2

    If you want to get in a playground barney, then I think the Celtic Supporters Trust spokeswoman refusing to condemn the IRA because they (and I quote) “are a political organisation” is a teeny weeny bit worse. But hey, they only murder people.

    As for Celtic singing about Fenians, have you never heard the song “who’s the fenian in the blue?” for Chris Burke - because I have.

    Have a good weekend, stay safe tomorrow and I hope you get pumped in the final - although I think you will win 4-0.
31. Harry 03.18.06 / 12pm

    I’m not denying Celtics Catholic connection, long time visitors know my history and I’m not going to repeat it, what I’d like is for someone who can tell me, without recommending books and research, where Rangers protestant connection arose.
    I know that Celtic were formed to assist Irish immigrants of any creed and so the connection is obvious, but surely someone in blue land must have an answer to the Rangers question.
32. Me2 03.18.06 / 1pm

    Harry

    Celtic were formed by Irish Catholics and are watched by predominantly non-Irish Catholics.

    Rangers were formed by British Protestants and are predominantly watched by British Protestants.

    Or are you saying Celtic were formed for Sectarian reasons and Rangers weren’t?
33. Fat Eck 03.18.06 / 1pm

    U2 - I don’t believe it. YOU PLAY GOLF????!!! Now there’s one group of “people” I have ABSOLUTELY NO TIME FOR!!! Christ and they think RANGERS FANS are bigoted - have they ever listned to some of the smug, middle-class, mysoginist, aren’t-we-clever-businessmen pish being spewed at the 19th hole??!! Yeeeeuch - that little revelation about your private life explains a few things … Any golf-related posts on this thread or on this site as a whole(-in-one) will be deleted: This is a golfer-free zone - we don’t like your type round here -

    OOOOOOh, no Driving Range,
    no Pringles to sadden my eyes,
    no putters, no tees,
    fuck yer annual club fees,
    And every day’s like the R&A’s died.

    Add N to X,

    Look, You’re a bit late with the “bring it on” stuff. Apparently,you feel you should slag me for not ignoring you, slag me for taking you so seriously. Seems to me you didn’t think your own initial statements were worth being taken to task. So I think, on that, we can call it quits on the self-hater stuff.

    If I’m as sensitive as you make out - and that’s fucking rich from Mr “Don’t ever call us huns, even ironically!” - then have a wee re-read of your post and reconsider just how successfully you’ve managed to avoid making personal insults.

    Fair enough - that’s our wee bit of schoolboy posturing done with: The main point to be gleaned is that you’re settling down into a serious debate you were in no way initially ready for…

    The good thing is, I see a lot of “on-topic” substance of your post which is worth debating. (of course, i think it’s actually more worthy of ridicule but, if I’m giving it a lengthy reply then you’ve obviously hit healthy nerves)

    You seem determined that The Gers’re being chased out of town rather than understanding that if we’re being chased, it’s because we’re always at the front, on top.

    I think in that direct comparison of our views on one sentiment we have our opposite mind-sets in a nutshell:, You seem very, very worried about how less-educated people will react to stuff said about Rangers. It’s almost as if you, personally, undersand where I’m coming from but you don’t trust anyone else to do the same. As the old guy says in Strictly Ballroom, you can’t live yer life in fear.

    Hun, Hun, Hun. Again, your uptight attitude really needs undermining, mate. Why does this word scare you so much? An insult is an insult - doesn’t matter what terms you use. And a laugh is a laugh, likewise. You attempt to blame the nasty songs at Ibrox on the poor education of working-class people - NICE! - yet lack the understanding of context when it comes to throwing a celtic fans insult back in their faces. “No Huns in Europe” - I’m not allowed to turn that round on them when they go out of Europe and we’re cruisng to the Champions LEague knock-out stages? Mmmm. No - wait a minute - you claim you DO understand what i’m doing but still don’t want me to do it. Now is that not EVEN SCARIER on your part? No sense of humour - just a readiness for reaction and hatred at every turn. What is it you feel you have to prove to yourself?

    When someone calls me a Hun and means it as an insult - I’ll know. Likewise I don’t think arseholes like U2 have ever called me a hun - but they mean to insult me very, very frequently. Hun is, for me, only as offensive as “tim” and the overreaction to it - “it insults our forefathers who fought the hun in the wars”? BULLSHIT! Our forefathers didn’t fight a pejorative nickname! They fought a REAL WAR, and a hell of a lot of them were tims and they all fought for a world where everyone could just CHILL OUT and not worry about Nazi-style hysteria - seems part of a sad little Rangers sub-culture, which has crept up from the Nine-in-a-row days when we aquired so many fans who had no idea what it was to truly support Rangers: This sub-culture seems determined to mimic the stereotypical paranoia of Celtic fans and is almost desperate to be as pathetically outraged, in a wholly extraneous socio-political manner, as the hysterics in hoops: “If they’re gonnae get all hot and bothered about their roots being insulted then so will we.” Just as, right now, when we’re clearly gonnae dominate Scottish Football for the forseeable, some “Ranges fans” are determined to worry more about what Graham bloody Speirs is saying rather than refusing hin the oxygen of publicity which our overeaction gives him and focusing on the fact that - HEY! - we’ve just signed Paul Le Guen as gaffer. PAUL LE GUEN. THAT’S MASSSIVE! Is this not reminiscent of Celtic winning the league under O’neill and “celebrating” by wearing t-shirts about Rangers? As if they were determined that even ultimate success would not spoil their need to hate.

    Anyway - there are huns I can call huns and tims I can call tims and I love them dearly and they me. If you’d been on the same bus as me from Valencia to Villarreal you might have heard the wee extended version of “There’s only one Nacho Novo” which includes the word “hun”, as used by Nacho himself. As far as I could judge, everyone on said omnibus was far from insulted as they battered it out good style.

    When someone insults you, Add N to X, the best reaction is to take it, hold it, turn it round and use it to ridicule them. When someone attacks you - the best thing to do is take the valid points of that attack, open it up for honest debate, allow ALL your attackers into your confidence, win them over, make them relax and then BATTER THE LIVING SHITE out of those who deserve it.

    I’m talking about philosophically rather than physically, of course!

    When Saturday Comes? People have been let down by the education system and now “clever” media types? Again - fear, mate. You’re living in fear. You have to know what you are before worrying about others. If the WSC crowd is as casual about Scottish football as you think then d’you think they’d even have read the Rangers comments? And maybe the WSC readership is middle-class and pseudo-liberal enough to actually understand that I was opening up the debate - sucking in the detractors to show them their own hypocrisy. By the way, WHAT DID I SAY IN THE REST OF THAT LITTLE QUESTIONNAIRE in that edition of WSC? Seizing on one line you didn’t understand because it gave you something to hate about another Bluenose rather than remembering the comments I’d made about Rangers triumphs and Celtic’s disgusting attempts under O’neill to change the subject every time we beat them? Come on - have a word with yourself.

    You’re the SECOND person to come on this site and mention that line in WSC. I understand from a few friends that there was a little thread about it on Follow Follow but - even when ye look at this thread - 30 posts between half-a-dozen people - you can see that my “own goal” must have been ruled offiside. (wait a minute - how can ye be offside for an own-goal … och, ye know what I mean).

    It was nowhere near as succesful as I wanted it to be and nowhere near as “damaging “as you seem to think it was. Frankly, no-one noticed.

    What it has done, though, has at least convinced you to have a wee think about where ye come from and what yer about. I know ye’ll never admit to that much but I think the last few days and the changing nature of your three posts show the health in opening up a debate. So many people think we’re bigoted BECAUSE we have so many protestant fans - I’d like to show that that’s bullshit. Being a true Protestant is, in fact, the very opposite of bigoted. When people realise that, then they’ll maybe realise that so many of our songs are actually a whole less insulting than most of the stuff sung at every other ground in the world.

    And here’s me not even a Protestant!

    So - hey - if I’ve helped one person then that’s my job done :-)

    Only kidding - I know ye still “disagree” with me, Add N to X. I know ye’ll want to prove me wrong in my actions as I want to prove you wrong in your reactions but, that’s the beauty of supportng Rangers - we are The people who WELCOME THE CHASE.
34. RC Hamilton 03.18.06 / 1pm

    Fat Eck,

    You are a terrific writer on Rangers, in fact the best I have ever read, but you are trying to be too clever by half.

    The terms “Tim” and “Hun” are not comparable. There is a shop in the Gallowgate called something like Tim Zone. Do you think there would ever be a hun-zone or similar?

    Only middle-class Hooray Henry’s who live in their Ivory Towers think it is funny to be insulted - because lets be honest it is meant as an insult. Ask yourself why nobody calls you a hun in polite company? If they do, they are seeing you as a mug.

    Are you a blue-nose? Are you a hun? See the difference?

    Anyway, it all boils down to the fact that this isn’t a wee game anymore. Rangers could be banned in Europe because we have people who think it is ok to call Rangers fans huns or DOB’s but a potential jailing if you mention Fenians. This has been taken wholeheartedly by the Scottish intelligentsia. Are you allowed to say you have walked down Fenian Street in Dublin or is that banned too?

    At the very least we could do without intelligent writers like yourself being so clever and philosophical that the very point you are trying to make is so obscure that the diddy’s who read it only see RANGERS + BIGOTS = REALITY.

    You are not Foucault or Wittgenstein. Good writing (and you are a terrific one at that) trys to be simple rather than complicated. Write for your audience, not for the ideas in your head.
35. Harry 03.18.06 / 4pm

    Me2 for fek sakes man can you answer my question or state thrtb you dont know the answer, in case it’s outside of you sphere of remembrance here itis again…what I�d like is for someone who can tell me, without recommending books and research, where Rangers protestant connection arose….
    Your reply is ..Rangers were formed by British Protestants… explain to me, from where you get that information.
    Dead fekin easy mate, don’t come back about Celtic, I’m not denying the connection, how many times must I repeat it.
36. Me2 03.18.06 / 4pm

    Harry

    “I�d like is for someone who can tell me, without recommending books and research”

    Eh? You really are a cracker! So books and research from independent sources is not good enough, you want me to tell you what the wee guy down the road thinks? It’s usually the other way about.

    I suppose I am not surprised you don’t like books, but then that is a different story. How you get to understand the history of your club without actually reading about it is beyond me.

    The team that became Rangers was formed in 1872 by Moses McNeil, his brother Peter McNeil, Peter Campbell and William McBeath. All were British and all were Protestant. In fact the main founder Moses had his roots in dear old Ulster.
37. u2 03.18.06 / 7pm

    Eck, but I’m shite at it and I don’t like the 19th hole brigade because they represent everything I hate. But I do like trying to get better at the old game - and it keeps the heart and lungs active when the joints aren’t up to the rigours of football anymore.

    Me2,

    The Celtic Trust spokesperson was not asked to condemn the IRA. She was asked, in the context of a debate on sectarian singing, “what about Celtic fans singing IRA songs?”. Her answer was to make a distinction between sectarian songs and “political” songs.

    I suspect the reason why the RST spokesperson hasn’t been asked to condemn the UVF or UDA songs in the same way as he’s been asked to condemn dfb is due to that distinction. Hence my “boiling the ocean” comments above. The last time I looked the UVF and UDA were murderers also, but I have never asked for that to be addressed by you or anyone else on this site because, I’m sure you’ll agree, it becomes too complex an issue for a football site.

    If we are having the RST giving partial quotes from the Oxford English to avoid condemning the phrase dfb as sectarian abuse, what chance will anyone have at this juncture of tackling the complexities of Irish history and it’s assorted legal, illegal, terrorist, political, state sponsored, legitimate, illegitimate, freedom fighters, defenders - and their associated - directly or indirectly - songs and cultures - in the context of Celtic and Rangers???

    I’ve enjoyed the exchanges with you - at least you don’t call me an ar**hole like the fatboy does, even if you think I am one.

    Your argument sounds a little like the one used by Rangers fans in the 60s and 70s when confronted with the question of “why do Rangers not sign Catholics?”. Their answer tended to be “ask Celtic why they have no Protestants on their board”.

    Instead of addressing the subject back then - which we all knew then and know now to have been a sectarian signing policy - they ask something related but still sufficiently different to be meaningless. Missing the irony that they had never had a Catholic on the board of Rangers!

    A good result today for Rangers’ UEFA Cup hopes for next season. What is it with Motherwell and their last minute goals at Fir Park?????

    C’mon the jammy farts.
38. Me2 03.18.06 / 9pm

    U2

    “The Celtic Trust spokesperson was not asked to condemn the IRA. She was asked, in the context of a debate on sectarian singing, �what about Celtic fans singing IRA songs?�. Her answer was to make a distinction between sectarian songs and �political� songs.”

    If you can actually see that as a defence then there is no hope. You are falling into the trap that you see others falling into. The problem we currently have is not that Rangers have no problem, most will agree that they do. The real problem arises in those who think Celtic do not have a problem. They cry:

    “It can’t be sectarianism because the IRA are only Terrorists and Murderers, not just Catholics!”

    “Even though there are plenty of Protestant Fenians, in our wee world it just means Catholic. When I call you an Orange Bastard I am not talking about your Protestantism (even though all Orangemen are Protestants).

    And so the bizarre logic goes round and round and round. Again I’m not defending any moron on either side, merely that we cannot use semantics on either side to defend what is said.

    When 35000 Celtic fans tomorrow are singing, “Cheer up Alex McLeish…you sad Orange bastard…”then every single person who does so is a bigot as there is no difference between substituting Gordon Strachan and Fenian.

    Of-course there are thousands who will say that this is not bigotry. To my mind these are the dangerous people, not the buckfast fueled neds who can hardly speak. They are obvious to spot the others are not.

    Sadly many Celtic fans will be talking about the huns, singing about the old brigade, and calling McLeish an Orange bastard. These will be the same people tut-titting when Rangers get fined for bigotry. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the irony.
39. u2 03.19.06 / 1am

    Me2,

    I wasn’t offering it as a defence, I was clarifying what was said. Everything you say on the subject of the IRA I agree with. I’ve said it many times, but I note that you focus on the IRA and the IRA only. No acknowledgement of the UDA and UVF equivalent at Ibrox.

    Let me clarify one more time. DOB sung or said is as offensive as DFB, and I cringe when I hear it. I did not and do not defend it. Nor did I nor do I defend IRA songs.

    My point is this, in short words so as you don’t misunderstand:-

    The Irish /IRA /UDA /UVF / Republican /Loyalist singing is one thing. This one thing will prove very difficult to resolve for complex reasons - such as defining in law what is illegal, what is free speach, what is defined as an IRA/UDA/UVF song. What song content is illegal? On and on and on - without scrtching the surface.

    The FTP/DOB/DFB is another thing. This thing can be addressed. If it takes 1 year or 2 years to remove those specific terms from our supporters repertoires. surely it’s worth addressing now?? To do that we need leadership from the clubs and, more importantly, their supporters groups.

    Fergus McCann showed leadership and was largely a success in removing that kind of language from Celtic Park, but the cheer up song remains an exception I cringe at. The fact it was stolen from Rangers after the Tommy Burns era is neither an excuse nor a reason for our support to recipricate.

    “Of-course there are thousands who will say that this is not bigotry. To my mind these are the dangerous people” YOU ARE SO CORRECT.

    People who say DOB is not bigoted are wrong and are dangerous.
    People who say DFB is not bigoted are wrong and are dangerous.

    Your RST spokeperson comes under this category. I AM SO GLAD YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THAT. He should be removed and replaced with someone who can show leadership.

    I’m away to bed. Cup Final beckons and a bit of a tear-jerker I’m sure.

    Make sure and applaud the wee man tomorrow if you got one of the 27 tickets Hearts generously gave Rangers for Tynecastle:)
40. Derek 03.19.06 / 12pm

    U2, back to my previous post, as Me2 has pointed out, Celtic fans use “fenian” as a term of abuse, so why are they on here criticising Ramngers fans for it when they do it themselves?

    On the Hartson queston, I asked if it is sectarian to call Hartson a fenian bastard. I would consider him to fall under that definition and would not criticise any one for calling him that after his videogate(s) antics, despite him not being a catholic. Yet again I would ask if it is sectarian to call Hartson a fenian, and if not, then is it sectarian to call Pearson one? Where does it cross the line into sectarianism?

    Earlier you say that we should look at getting rid of DOB and DFB before we get onto the IRA/UDA/UVF thing. Personally I believe that you have got that the wrong way round. I find the chants for terrorist organisations, on either side, much worse than being called a DOB.

    Irish terrorist organisations ARE sectarian, and, no, I don’t think it is too complex to discuss here, and for Celtic themselves to describe IRA chants as “political” is deeply offensive, but I have not heard any Celtic fans pulling up their club for that.

    You say “This one thing will prove very difficult to resolve for complex reasons - such as defining in law what is illegal, what is free speach… What song content is illegal?” in respect of terrorist organisations. I would claim the same for many of the songs that rangers are being criticised for. The Billy Boys song is about one Glasgow gang fighting another. You are happy enough to make a judgement on that song, but not on terrorist songs, which are largely more clear cut (although i would accept not always). Who gets to decide on the imagery and the interpretation of songs and words?

    If you are calling for the RST spokesman to be removed, why are you not calling for the Celtic chairman to be removed?

    Another thing I find (verging on)offensive, while I am on a rant, is this minutes clapping. I have never been asked to do it yet, and will refuse to it in the future. I would hope that Rangers will never ask their fans to do it as a show of respect. A minute’s silence will do for me and is much more respectful.
41. u2 03.19.06 / 9pm

    Derek,

    You’re right about being on a rant. Respect is a simple thing, shown in many ways. Silence or applause. Either is ok by me, but 10 people in a crowd of 50,000 dominate if they refuse to observe a silence? Do you think a silence would have been observed at Tynecastle? Na. Why give the cretins the publicity/ Hearts and Rangers avoided a PR catastrophe today by going for an applausse rather than a silence. Just my thoughts.

    So - to your main point - addressing the IRA/UDA/UVF songs.

    As my boss frequently says to us - don’t give me a problem without offering a potential solution.

    Tell us all how you would address the problem. What is an IRA song and what is not? What is a UDA song and what is not? What is a UVF song and what is not? How would you define the crime to define the punishment?

    List the UVF / UDA songs you would ban from Ibrox and tell me how you would instruct the police and stewards to handle it should any of your banned songs be heard?

    Tell me your masterplan. I’m intrugued.

    Rants are great, but we live in the real world, so transform your rant into something that could work.

    My breath is baited.

    As an aside, the Hartson question. Surely it’s about intent to offend in the statement that determines sectarianism or not? A coloured guy calling another coloured guy “black boy” is acceptable to both in the context, but a white man calling a black man a “black b******” is entirely different.

    The same equates for John Hartson being called “fenian b*****” by Rangers fans - it’s meant to offend and is therefore offensive.

    Solution. Give me your solution.
42. Derek 03.20.06 / 8am

    U2, Of course calling Hartson a fenian is offensive. That wasn’t my question, as you are aware. Lots of things are offensive, but not necessarily sectarian. Is it SECTARIAN?

    You are the one who said there was a problem and didn’t offer a solution on the terrorist song issue, so why not take your own advice?

    Define the punishment? Ban them, or do what rangers did with TBO on another issue and ban a section for a while and then let them back in with the threat that if there is a repeat then ban them forever. List the songs? Can’t say that I can give a list of Celtic’s full repertoire, but at a start, any song which mentions the IRA. Likewise any song at Ibrox that mentions UVF/UDA (although I can’t think of any that mention UDA). There you go. Easy.

    Perhaps it’s not as easy as that but it’s not any more difficult than dealing with any other issue.

    We’ll just ignore the other points in my previous post, I guess.

    On the silence applause thing, I understand your point of view, and would accept that it is as valid a view as my own. Showing respect is a personal thing, and I guess it’s what we are comfortable with.
43. Add N to X 03.20.06 / 1pm

    Fat Eck,
    I think we want the same thing but we approach from different angles.

    I would disagree about the ‘fear’thing too.

    But hey, free country and all that.
44. u2 03.20.06 / 5pm

    Derek,

    I’d love to continue the dialogue, but I’m off to the airport tonight.

    You are correct about me not offering a solution, but pointing it out to me clearly shows you haven’t read my posts properly. I’ve said clearly (evidently not clearly enough for some) that I don’t have a solution. I believe the subject to be too complex to resolve at this juncture. I believe we should focus on the simpler thing to address now and look at changing other cultures over a longer period of time.

    I’ve obviously stumbled upon greatness in my exchanges with you, as you seem to think it’s an easy one. If only we had you and your easy solutions in Ireland years ago we may have avoided the Troubles entirely!!

    I didn’t address all your points - in the same way you and Me2 failed to address all of mine. You’ll note I never asked for a list of Celtic’s repertoire to ban, I asked you for Rangers’. Another misreading.

    Thanks to all the Gers and Jambos who applauded the wee man. I’m sure the few who didn’t have their reasons, but at least we didn’t get to hear them dominate a silence.

    Oh the blue room is bare, oh there’s no trophies there,
    Oh there’s no Mr Sheen ‘cos there’s nuthin to clean.
45. Derek 03.20.06 / 6pm

    “I�m sure the few who didn�t have their reasons”. I’m sure they did, and most were probably like me and felt it would be more respectful to stand in silence, but let’s mention it and try and put a spin on it that they were attempting to be disrespectful. :roll:

    It was you who said that you should have a solution to a problem, and that one should be offered. I’m hardly misreading you, just pointing out the inconsistency in your statement.

    Likewise I never stated that you asked for Celtic�s repertoire, I was just trying to look at both sides, something that Celtic are uncomfortable with due to their failure to deal with the whole bannergate/videogate/trophygate issues.

    The point I was originally trying to make was that it was as simple to address the whole IRA/UVF issue, but you obviously disagree and went on the attack instead. You seem to want to decide what issues are and are not “too complex to resolve at this juncture” but will not respond when challenged that some issues are more complex than you try to make out, and others are less complex. Or am I misreading you again?
46. Jim McAra 03.21.06 / 4pm

    so it must be official then.. despite 130 years of SFA protection UEFA is officially investigating the official traditions of the official Hun Bile and official Scottish Bigotry. Bout time. I can only see Fat Eck devolving diatribe of drivel developing into “War and Peace” proprtions with and his hun afficionados in agreement as the truth of Scottish Sectarianism becomes harder and harder to officially hide and is officially “Flushed oot in public”…hehehehe…. I cant wait… the officail media reponse will be along the lines…”Hod oan..whit aboot the feinan bazzas..ur they no bigots tae?”
47. Derek 03.21.06 / 4pm

    Hun - “derogatory word for german or protestant, esp in Northern ireland”

    Source (one of many) -
    www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hun

    Jim, look in a mirror before you start accusing others of being bigots.
48. Jim McAra 03.21.06 / 4pm

    yer kiddin.. I thought it stood for Humiliated Undignified Neds…well I am always willing to learn..

    Mirror Mirror on the wall
    where does Derek get the gall
49. Fat Eck 03.21.06 / 9pm

    Add N to X,

    Fair enough.

    Good talking with ye.
50. Jim McAra 03.22.06 / 12am

    Fat Eck I have never discussed pop music with ye but I’d love tae whip yer arse on that topic tae!!!! hardy har har .. penalties..red cards ..want to discuss it under Mr Le guen….
51. Kevin Shen 04.19.06 / 8pm

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52. L.O.L. 06.07.06 / 2pm

    Yeez are all fannys, are yees all uneducated teenagers? You dont seem to know whats happening here. Rangers were not founded on the Protestant religion, we adopted the Protestants of Glasgow and Britain AFTER Celtic were formed in 1888 to bleed dry the already ridiculosly poor Irish Catholics of Glasgows slums. That was when we got our identity, as the opposition, and the opposition to Irish Catholicism is British Protestantism, infact its every Protestantism from the USA to Australia to China to Hong Kong to Guatemala, they just dont like us. They are tought in there wee Pineaples not to acknowledge our Church not to treat US PROTESTANTS with mutual respect, whereas we are tought to respect every religion from Islam to Bead Rattlers. Its as simple as that, the war helped fashion out some more paramilitary groups, then the 60’s and 70’s came and the riots in the 80’s, leading to the Taylor Report. This hatred has been there since long before these 2 massive Football Institutions were created. Rangers and Celtic simply gave Glaswegians grounds to work there hatred from. May i end by saying , we will not have a free Britain until tarrier Blair and bead-rattling McConnell are out of office, these 2 men are doing everything they can to let Irish Immigrants breed on our shores, they welcome the influx and it disgusts me. If they could they would sell Northern Ireland back to the Irish. Fuck The Pope and Quis Separabit. If your not sure about something, dont write it. Stop talking pish, thats to everyone btw.
53. D. Murray 06.07.06 / 2pm

    Jim McAra….your a wank mate,sad wee lonely venian, tarrier,pope loving,chapel going,Celtic supporting,dirty bastard. We are the people, while your living in a Protestant land,abide by our rules and show us some respect or go back to taig land.Fuck Off and take yer smelly chapels and beads with you.

    FTP
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